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Bloviating Zeppelin: Second Thoughts?

Bloviating Zeppelin

(in-ep-toc'-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Saturday, July 10, 2010

Second Thoughts?


I may anger any number of my readers but what is a day or a night without a challenge?

I have been having second thoughts these days, about Iraq and Afghanistan.

I am thinking that perhaps it's time to put a fork in both of those countries; they're done. As should be our presence there.

I am thinking that perhaps it's time to pack up and move out.

Because I don't think we can "win."

I should care to explain myself further:

I don't doubt the American Soldier, not for a microsecond. I don't doubt his commitment, his courage, his valor, his strength, his honor, his obedience, his history. Make no mistake; it is the American Soldier that is, essentially, the savior many times over of this planet and of freedom.

But I am thinking that, if we refuse to support them logistically, if we fail to provide them with a clear mission, with clear and logical rules of engagement, with the equipment they need at the front and at home, if we fail to support them when they are injured, if we fail to support their families when they have shed blood for this country and proffered the ultimate sacrifice -- but mostly -- if we bind their arms and blind their eyes and still shove them out into a hail of fire and IEDs. . .

If we bind them politically and reign them in and keep them from winning. . .

. . . then is it not time to stop the further loss of our good young men and women in the military?

Is it not time to let what must be, be?

If we are not going to remove and ship oil from Iraq . . .

If we are not going to send Killer Squads into Pakistan to eliminate bin Laden . . .

If we are not going to kill five terrorists for every one soldier killed, and put their bleeding heads on sharpened sticks in public . . .

If we are not going to assault mosques and ventilate the Taliban and al Qaeda in what is, essentially, just another building . . .

If we are not going to tolerate collateral damage or casualties in any way . . .

If we demand perfection from our soldiers and expect lawlessness from our enemies, then prosecute our soldiers for being human . . .

Then we have committed ourselves to defeat and allowed our good men to die. And therefore, no more good men should die if we lack the political will to kill the enemy. Lots of people. People who deserve killing no matter where they be, no matter how they dress.

For Christ's sake, people, we refuse to even call the enemy "the enemy." We use euphemisms.

And then, maybe then, it really is time to pack up and go home.

BZ

posted by Bloviating Zeppelin @ Saturday, July 10, 2010 

20 Comments:

Blogger Greywolfe said...

BZ, as a former Army soldier, and current militant patriot, I have to agree whole heartedly with your post. I have not one argument to offer.

The fact is this, we as a nation don't have either the fortitude or the common sense to know how to fight a war any more. I'd say it started in Viet Nam or even possibly in Korea. The public was given nearly 24 hour a day coverage of war and the hell that comes with it and they were repulsed. They set out to humanize the demonically inhumane.

The political winds have blown this nation so off course that we've decided that war has to be a civilized affair and that we must not in any way allow soldiers to have an unfettered hand in winning the engagement no matter what it costs us.

Bring them home. Seize a strip of mexico 25 deep and completely accross the border and set up a DMZ. Line it with land mines and armed military patrols and put our soldiers, marines, navy, and air force to a use that will be productive without getting them killed uselessly.

Fri Jul 09, 10:50:00 PM PDT  
Blogger Bloviating Zeppelin said...

I'd say it even began in Korea, but not nearly as politically micromanaged as Vietnam.

War certainly isn't "civilized." Hell, the streets in my town aren't "civilized." Soldiers exist to kill people and break things. If you aren't willing to kill people and break things, soldiers should not be applied.

Just my thoughts anyway. I could be wrong.

BZ

Sat Jul 10, 04:57:00 AM PDT  
Blogger mrchuck said...

About time someone discusses this with accuracy.
I approve.
Wrong use of our fighting men.

Sat Jul 10, 06:24:00 AM PDT  
Blogger Bloviating Zeppelin said...

Mr Chuck: we could win. If our soldiers were allowed.

Yet, I doubt the true shape and frame of what actually constitutes a "win" in those regions? What IS a "win" there? As some people have postulated -- what DOES it look like?

BZ

Sat Jul 10, 06:59:00 AM PDT  
Blogger Well Seasoned Fool said...

Go in only when our country is threatened (safe haven - Afghanistan). Hammer the threat with extreme measures. Get out. Let the locals sort out their own problems.

Sat Jul 10, 07:54:00 AM PDT  
Blogger TexasFred said...

BZ, I have long been called anti-American and anti-military by the likes of Amy Proctor because I feel the exact same way..

Our troops, if given free rein, could have this hash settled in no time at all, but we don't fight WARS any more, we engage in politically correct police actions...

I KNOW that our troops can, and WILL do the job, ANY task assigned, but their leaders, DoD and their CiC have NO BALLS, they are afraid of offending and afraid of world opinion...

The American people, Conservatives, are afraid that Obama will send the military and police to take our guns, I say there is NO WAY that can be accomplished.

Iraq and Afghanistan and both about the same size in land area as Texas. In nine years we haven't subdued either... You see where I'm going?? There are far more gun owners in the USA than there are troops or cops, Obama does NOT want this nation to descend into total anarchy...

Even if the troops were ALL home from Iraq and Afghanistan, it's still not enough..

Sat Jul 10, 08:18:00 AM PDT  
Blogger Debra's Diary said...

I have plenty of second thoughts and we must start with showing Jan Brewer of Arizona the we support her. Now is the time for all patriotic Americans to come to the aid of Arizona.

Thank you Jan Brewer for standing up against
a Fed. government gone MAD! We are with you!

Sat Jul 10, 08:22:00 AM PDT  
Blogger Greywolfe said...

BZ, a win is indeed different for each person. For me a win would be a toe tag on anyone that preaches, teaches, or promotes Islam in any form. It's a horrendous religion that preaches conversion by word or sword. And this fight won't go away as long as it exists.

Barring that, we need to reduce any country that harbors terrorists to cave man status. It's the only way to secure our own security.

Sat Jul 10, 10:34:00 AM PDT  
Blogger Always On Watch said...

BZ,
I agree with your post. Heartily.

It pains me to believe that we cannot win under the current ROE's as one of my young cousins will be shipping out with the USMC -- to Afghanistan, most likely. I fear that he's going to be put into harm's way for no good cause.

Sat Jul 10, 10:46:00 AM PDT  
Blogger David Wyatt said...

You've not angered me, BZ. I agree with your sentiments. Until we have true leadership in America that knows what it takes & is committed to it, we're wasting some of the most valuable lives in America who desire to do the honorable thing but are denied the tools to do it.

Sat Jul 10, 10:57:00 AM PDT  
Blogger Bloviating Zeppelin said...

Fred, I remember your take on this from a while ago. It just took me, essentially, this amount of time to finally concede our unwillingness to actually accomplish the job.

Debra: I REALLY concur with that. If it weren't so darned far away, and if I didn't still have a job, I'd like to do some coverage of the situation there. Perhaps in my retirement/dotage.

AOW: and I fear you may be correct. Prayers and best wishes to him.

David: and it's so eminently frustrating to KNOW we can finish the job and we CHOOSE not to do so.

BZ

Sat Jul 10, 12:50:00 PM PDT  
Blogger Z said...

Believe it or not, BZ, I'm with you on this and have been secretly for months...The only thing I worry about is all our kids who've died there (for nothing?) and that we'd be giving up. But, is it worth MORE kids dying for...nothing?

The only other thing is Al Qaeda's presence has gone drastically down since we moved in and made things uncomfortable for them....we don't want terrorism getting a foothold again (if they ever actually lost it?)

I'd say bring them all home.......and shore up our borders, our TSA, our harbors WITH OUR SOLDIERS...KEEP THEM OUT that way.What do you think?

If we REALLY went in and started laying down the law and letting our soldiers do their job, I'd say LET'S STAY but we're looking like absolute NINCOMPOOPS there now, scrambling to get them to like us, embed journalists destroying careers, giving Mirandas to terrorists, fighting PUBLICLY here about not torturing...we look like WIMPS in Arab areas..absolute idiotic, Keystone COP WIMPS...

time to go home.....
except Obama won't use our soldiers to shore us up at home because a muslim or illegal might take that personally, so...get ready, what's happened in Israel for years will be happening here and, since we have NO GUTS, we could lose .

Unless Sheriff Arpaio takes charge :-)

Sat Jul 10, 12:56:00 PM PDT  
Blogger Bloviating Zeppelin said...

Z: the problem is, I'm unsure they ever really lost their foothold.

It's taken me quite some time to move to this type of thought. I do so with the greatest of trepidation.

But if we lack the will, the resolve to do nothing more than MAKE our soldiers targets, then I say we cut our losses. Our troops are too fine and too precious to waste on politicians who have no stomach for their actual use.

BZ

Sat Jul 10, 02:06:00 PM PDT  
Blogger Old NFO said...

You make a bunch of very good points BZ, the one you missed is the ROE changes that basically value civilian lives over our military personnel... sigh...

Sat Jul 10, 07:00:00 PM PDT  
Blogger A Jacksonian said...

I've looked at Afhanistan and know what victory looks like: we aren't doing it.

For a 'surge' to work you need a cohesive Nation State as a background. That is not present. The 'surge' in Iraq worked because there was that feeling of Nation State amongst the populace and a growing hatred of terrorism. Iraq is now in a state of being between its Arab Shia majority, Arab Sunni minority and Kurd plurality that can only hold on a number of 'ifs' that are not under our control. We have completed our mission as far as we can be expected to do so there, which was to finally end the original '90-'91 fight. Now if Arab Shia hate Arab Sunnis and Kurds, but don't have the capacity or wherewithal to fight the Kurds, and have a great distaste of Persian Shia, then where, exactly, will they go? The ethnic and religious hatred there will not guarantee stasis, nor stability, nor implosion. It is now up to the people of Iraq to decide if they will be a civil society or not. That is the best chance they have EVER gotten in their ENTIRE history.

We can't make it ANYTHING, only the locals can do that.

The way to win in Afghanistan is to change the parameters of the fight, secure a second supply line, shift to a mountain offensive, shift focus to the Loya jirga and away from Karzai and attack outwards. Perhaps dangle the Gold Rush and prospecting as bait to turn some border tribes... then force the Pashtuns to fish or cut bait on the NWFP. They can either form a Nation, join Pakistan fully or Afghanistan fully, but that must be on the table to finally end this stupidity. We won't do that... we can and should do that but we are pussyfooting around that and until it is addressed we cannot win.

Mind you that still won't get you to a great Nation State for Afghanistan, but then it doesn't need a modern system to work, either. Can we get our war colleges to dust off the history books and TEACH FROM THEM?

I have advocated this for a few years now. Bush didn't do that. Obama isn't doing it. Petraeus isn't advocating it.

And the next war is already starting up on our southern border.

I don't *want* the Talibe back in control in Afghanistan. But I don't want the Union to dissolve at home, either.

First the Union.

All else is secondary.

Sun Jul 11, 11:14:00 AM PDT  
Blogger A Jacksonian said...

What to do in Afghanistan? I know what the path to victory must look like and we aren't doing it. Bush didn't do it, Obama isn't doing it, Petraeus isn't advocating it...

If we were serious it would be a second supply line, shift out of the Karzai/strong executive approach and go for the Loya jirga/tribal approach, go after the Pashtun question and go after the Talibe in their home territory until Pakistan either fishes or cuts bait. Until Pakistan stops funding terrorism, there will be no end to this. Until the Pashtuns decide if they want to be Afghans, Pakistanis or form up their own Nation, there will be no end of this. Until we force the question we will not win, only attempt to not lose which is losing.

In Iraq the Arab Shia majority has problems: it doesn't trust the Arab Sunni minority or the Kurds or the Iranians. Sucks to be them, huh? The ethnic hatred between Persians and Arabs has always been discounted by the Left which trumpets religion... yet religion is not the ace card: ethnicity is. After ethnicity comes religion. Before both comes the feeling of a Nation State, and the Arab Shia hate being bossed around by Persian Shia or Arab Sunnis... why they don't power broker with the Kurds is beyond me...

We can't MAKE anything in Iraq: only Iraqis can. We have given them the best chance they have EVER had in all of history to do this. Basically we have closed out the original Desert Storm, given the locals a taste of how much al Qaeda hates them, and put in place all the capabilities for locals to figure things out.

Its up to them, now.

Time for us to go.

If we will not fight to win in Afghanistan, then we are there to no point.

We have a war coming to our southern border due to the last four Administrations. We need troops, not National Guard, for that. Plenty of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Do I *want* the Talibe to take over Afghanistan? No.

Are we fighting a smart war to get the Talibe interested in something else? No.

Is our southern border about to go to pot? Yes.

Thus the Union first.

All else can now hang.

Obama will screw up the border, never worry. We still need our soldiers ready for when Obama comes to his end in office... sooner or later, that will happen. No matter how much the Left wants an uber state, they won't get it. They will get war. Sucks to be us, now, too.

Sun Jul 11, 11:32:00 AM PDT  
Blogger A Jacksonian said...

I have a number of posts on Afghanistan, but will just link to my latest. We aren't fighting smart, we aren't fighting hard, we aren't facing up to the politics there, we aren't doing the things necessary to force a number of issues... we are fighting to not lose, which is losing.

Iraqis have been given the best chance they have EVER gotten in history to determine their own course. Arab Shias hate: Persian Shia, Arab Sunnis and Kurds. They actually fear the latter... which should be their natural allies. Sucks to be them! Arab Sunnis don't like being killed by other Arab Sunnis and don't trust: Arab Shia, Persian Shia or Kurds. Kurds hate it that they have been denied Kurdistan, which was promised to them by... Woodrow Wilson.

Did anyone ever mention that Wilson was the first to really start re-drawing the ME maps after WWI? No? Really that should be looked into... along with the help of the British and French.

What to do?

Iraq is over. We won. Sucks to be us we don't like that, but that's the way it is.

Afghanistan we refuse to fight to win. We should leave.

We have the next war starting on our southern border. We will need troops, not National Guard but actual military troops with real fighting capability. Obama is trying to gut that, but has his hands full gutting our economy. He is going to get a war he doesn't want, which is on the southern border. He has a war he doesn't want and can't leave in Afghanistan.

Sucks to be Obama.

Sucks to be the US.

The Left hates war, detests it with a purple passion... and will now get yet another of their very own. They don't want to fight it, but will hate getting killed a bit more than that. By then Obama will be done... doesn't matter if he is in office at that point he is finished.

What happens after that depends very much on the American people and who they decide is enemy #1: Mexican cartels, al Qaeda, the US Left.

The US Left will want to distract us with the economy, cartels, al Qaeda, and import a new voting population and destroy the Union, thereby.

My guess is that the American people have now caught on to this.

I suggest people remove their pro-Obama stickers from their cars within the next 6 months. Burn all the pro-Obama paraphenalia, too. Plus all the Earth-hugging stuff, and Green stuff. Buy some camo clothing and fake being on the right if you want to survive.

The bill is coming due.

I don't want what will happen to happen.

But it will no matter what we do now.

Sun Jul 11, 11:59:00 AM PDT  
Blogger Dixon Webb said...

Blo . . I agree. Without some clear and logical reason to be there, let's not.

In Iraq the danger to American interests has been largely been defused. Time to go.

In Afghanistan nobody seems to really know why that country is so important. If there is a reason, it's been poorly sold. Time to go.

In Pakistan we are not actually there except to keep an eye on their atomic capability. They are not our friends. They will do what they will do. The threat to America is almost nil. Time to go.

Iran may be a serious threat to us but until they actually do something, we should wait and see. No more quick presumptive wars please.

Our nation will recover it's backbone when the liberals are put out to pasture. The THREAT of America's POWER is still enough to protect and determine our future.

Bump

Sun Jul 11, 12:46:00 PM PDT  
Blogger Jennifer Leeland said...

Once I knew Mr. Obama was going to be our commander in chief, I knew we would not be able to do the job.
As in Vietnam and North Korea, it's not our soldiers who lack the will to fight. It's the politicians, who are easily influenced by loud voices, who turn their back on the realities of war.
As you said, if the men behind the scenes who provide the logistical support, have given up, we can't win.

Sun Jul 11, 05:28:00 PM PDT  
Blogger Bloviating Zeppelin said...

AJ: the "next war" starting up on our southern border?

Yes. That is very accurate.

BZ

Mon Jul 12, 06:00:00 AM PDT  

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